Washington Times — Under-reported News from Iraq

Thursday, December 08, 2005
Today's Washington Times starts a new series of under-reported stories from Iraq. In today's editorial, the Times notes:
  • Primary-school enrollment has jumped 20 percent over the Saddam years, according to the Brookings Institution's Iraq Index.

  • Iraq's GDP rebounded by an estimated 50 percent in 2004, according to the IMF, mostly due to increased oil revenues. About one-third of Iraqis are unemployed -- an alarming rate -- but this is significantly better than two years ago, when half or more of Iraqis were unemployed.
I'll be following this series. Remember that one of the running talking points has been that things are worse now than they had been under Saddam.

213 comments:

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Doug said...

More evidence that Kerry was right:
. TERRORIZING IRAQI CHILDREN

Morgan said...

Picking up where Chrenkoff left off, I suppose. Good for them.

Buddy Larsen said...

Welcome to the Iraq Stock Market!

Barry Dauphin said...

Don't forget the dinar.

markg8 said...

Iraq's GDP went from 20.5 billion in 2002 to 13.6 billion in 2003 to 25.5 billion in 2004 according to Brookings who got their info from the World Bank and IMF. You can keep reading the Wa. Times but you might as well skip the middleman and go directly to the WH for that kind of information. Any news is good news as long as it leads to leaving Iraq to the Iraqis in my eyes. So if Bush is trying to convince his supporters that those broken shards on the ground are half full then I'm all for it.

David Thomson said...

“Any news is good news as long as it leads to leaving Iraq to the Iraqis in my eyes.”

We are in complete agreement. This, of course, will not happen overnight. After all, we still have troops stationed in Germany! The Iraqis will probably be able to handle most of their defense needs in less than five years. And I’m sure that you don’t wish to jeopardize the rebuilding project. Naive people like yourself are guilty for the deaths of millions in Vietnam and Cambodia. You don’t want the same thing to occur in Iraq, do you? Don’t you have enough blood on your conscience?

Peter UK said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Peter UK said...

"Iraq's GDP went from 20.5 billion in 2002 to 13.6 billion in 2003 to 25.5 billion in 2004.

So the GDP went down during the invasion,it is now 5 billion up on prewar figures.
This is the kind of failure most businesses pray for.

markg8 said...

David remember the Domino theory? Remember how all of Indochina was going to turn communist if we left Vietnam? What happened? Is Thailand communist? Cambodia might still be a halfassed monarchy today if Kissinger and Nixon hadn't destabilized it. But they did and who stopped Pol Pot? Why the Vietnamese who hated the Red Chinese supported goon on their border murdering millions of his own people. Then what did they do when they booted PP's butt out of power? They left.

So much for the Domino theory. What makes you think it'll work any differently in Iraq? According to the British Defence Ministry Poll in August 82% of Iraqis strongly oppose
the presence of coalition troops, 45% believe attacks against US and UK troops are justified. A whole 1% believe coalition troops are responsible for any improvement in security.

What makes you think 5 more years of staying this course is going to improve life for Iraqis or their attitude toward us? Unless you think
wiping out another 22 million people is a good idea I don't see how we get to your ideal.

markg8 said...

If 68% of your GDP is based on oil when the price goes up so does your GDP Petey. They could be making more but unfortunately they are pumping at lower rates than they were in Saddam's time. Partly because of the insurgency and partly because Saddam seriously damaged some wells with reckless pumping techniques in the year before the invasion.

Maybe you'd like to brag about cellphone usage some more eh?

David Thomson said...

“What makes you think it'll work any differently in Iraq? According to the British Defence Ministry Poll in August 82% of Iraqis strongly oppose...”

Most polls show the exact opposite. The Iraqis are not exactly thrilled that we are in their country. Who could blame them? Nonetheless, the majority are living better than before and know that we stand between them and possible armageddon. We are not creating more terrorists. On the contrary, we are creating more friends.

Peter UK said...

An increase is still an increase Mook it doesn't matter what the product is.
They are making progress despite,lower pumping capacity and your Ba'athist allies murdering indiscriminately.If you are in business for yourself,perhaps you could take a leaf out of Iraq's book.It's called success.

Ah, the old cellphone ploy, the last resort of an idiot.perhaps you would like to delve into the abuse of,aircraft,vehicles,any one of a myriad items of modern technology.

You no doubt would like to keep Iraq in some pre-technological age.

Peter UK said...

David,
The Poll was conducted by an Iraqi university,Mark's murdering allies will have no doubt leant on them.

Seneca the Younger said...

David remember the Domino theory? Remember how all of Indochina was going to turn communist if we left Vietnam? What happened? Is Thailand communist? Cambodia might still be a halfassed monarchy today if Kissinger and Nixon hadn't destabilized it. But they did and who stopped Pol Pot? Why the Vietnamese who hated the Red Chinese supported goon on their border murdering millions of his own people. Then what did they do when they booted PP's butt out of power? They left.

Huh? The Domino theory was that if Viet Nam fell, SE Asia would fall. And sure enugh, Viet Nam is communist (and how many millions died in "re-education" and trying to escape?); Cambodia fell to the Khmer Rouge (six million in the killng fields and a 13 year civil war to throw them out); Laos fell to the Pathet Lao; Burma is now a "Socialist republic". So you're notion that the Domino Theory didn't hold is that Thailand managed to resist?

Don't be a fool.

markg8 said...

Cite a poll that wasn't conducted by the Republican Institute cuz I ain't buying what they're selling. The only other poll I've seen was commissioned by the CPA a year and half ago and it says pretty much the same as the Brits.

We don't have the half million troops it'd take to quell the insurgency and rebuild. No other nations are stepping up to help Bush help Iraq. The only people who are gonna stave off civil war in Iraq are Iraqis. Let them. Staying another 5 years will only increase the killings. It serves no purpose other than salving George Bush's ego and making a bunch of American contracters rich.

Seneca the Younger said...

If 68% of your GDP is based on oil when the price goes up so does your GDP Petey. They could be making more but unfortunately they are pumping at lower rates than they were in Saddam's time. Partly because of the insurgency and partly because Saddam seriously damaged some wells with reckless pumping techniques in the year before the invasion.

Hmmm. Iraq is producing about 2.1 million bpd now, down from a max of 2.6 million bpd. They've lost capacity through the insugency and because Saddam pissed in the soup. They're regaining capacity because the US and Japan are spending big money to help, and the money is now going to a popularly elected government instead of being used to build palaces, line the pockets of middlemen, and be buried as US cash in people's back yards. Despite all that, they expect to be back to prewar capacity by 1Q06.

What was your point again? Your argument seems a little unclear.

Seneca the Younger said...

Markg8: No other nations are stepping up to help Bush help Iraq.

TOKYO, Dec 6 (Reuters) - Iraq plans to boost its crude oil production by about a quarter to reach pre-war levels of 2.6 million barrels per day (bpd) next year, Oil Minister Ibrahim Bahr al-Uloum said on Tuesday.

Output will rise as Japan helps violence-torn Iraq improve its southern oil terminals, the main gateway for overseas shipments, boosting exports to 2 million bpd, officials said after a meeting between the countries' top energy policy-makers.

markg8 said...

Seneca how many millions died in "re-education" and trying to escape Vietnam? A lot less than died during the war.

We left the SV the third largest air force in the world. What we didn't leave them was a functioning uncorrupt government. They didn't have the will to fight for the kind of government we believe in because they didn't have the kind of government we believe in. We'll see if the same happens in Iraq.

You want to spread democracy? Then lead by example. We're not doing that these days.

markg8 said...

Yeah I've heard many times over the last 3 years about how oil output, water or electricity is going to increase. And everytime they brag about this stuff the attacks come. Nothing happens without security and security won't happen until we pay attention to 99% of the Iraqi people and let them handle it. Especially the oil. They think we're stealing it.

Peter UK said...

"Cite a poll that wasn't conducted by the Republican Institute cuz I ain't buying what they're selling. The only other poll I've seen was commissioned by the CPA a year and half ago and it says pretty much the same as the Brits."

Put your money where your mouth is Mook


"We don't have the half million troops it'd take to quell the insurgency and rebuild."

How do you know Mook,you dropped your bottle and ran away from Vietnam,You know the rules if you didn't serve you can'y comment

"No other nations are stepping up to help Bush help Iraq."

List the nations that could,oops! sorry,you can't comment can you?

"The only people who are gonna stave off civil war in Iraq are Iraqis. Let them. Staying another 5 years will only increase the killings.!"

And now we get to the crux of the matter,Mark Garrity was happy for the Vietnamese to die for his ego and now he will cheerfully watch Iraqis die,just so he can hold his head up in a cheap bar and say"I wuz right"

A lifetime and Mark has forgotten nothing and learned nothing,history indeed repeated as farce

Peter UK said...

"They didn't have the will to fight for the kind of government we believe in because they didn't have the kind of government we believe in"

Amazing how the betrayal by the Democratic Congress has been airbrushed out of history.

South Vietnam fell for one reason and one reasone only The Democrats withdrew funding and air support.it was the worst betrayal of the 20th Century and Mark Garrity is proud.

So proud in fact he wants a reprise.
"Perfidy Redux"

markg8 said...

Citing the BBC Petey? I thought they were just part of the liberal MSM all of you despise. Regardless since that 3/04 poll none of the things that gave Iraqis hope have come to pass.

As for your silly insults, the more truth you hear the shriller you get.
Sad.

Peter UK said...

Mook,
Yes Mook but the BBC is good enough for you.

I'm not insulting you Mark just reflecting the real you back at you,not a pretty sight is it?

Why do you have this infantile compulsion to lie,you are not comvincing anyone here.
You are simply embarrassing yourself babbling on about subjects about which you know nothing.

Barry Dauphin said...

"Cambodians murdering millions of their own"?

Don't tell that to Noam Chomsky, you'll be excommunicated. Don't you know, that never happened.

Seneca the Younger said...

Seneca how many millions died in "re-education" and trying to escape Vietnam? A lot less than died during the war.

I'd probably place a bet on that --- people weren't risking death to escape South Viet Nam during the war --- but in any case, your point would be what? Surely you're not sufficiently uneducated as to think there wasn't a war before the US?

We left the SV the third largest air force in the world. What we didn't leave them was a functioning uncorrupt government. They didn't have the will to fight for the kind of government we believe in because they didn't have the kind of government we believe in.

Funny you should mention that, given that they actually had a functioning government when we left. Then the Congress cut off all aid in '73, and the NVA and their Russian sponsors poured something like 40 divisions across the border. If you had a little more education from someplace other than CBS retrospectives, you'd know the ARVN fought hard and well, but were overwhelmed by (as usual in any protracted struggle) the side with better logistics.

And why did the NVA have better logistics? Because a Democrat-controlled congress cut the ARVN's supply lines.

Really, Mark, try to think more than a snarky sentence ahead, you're no fun to play with.

Seneca the Younger said...

Markg8:

Yeah I've heard many times over the last 3 years about how oil output, water or electricity is going to increase.

Reality:

Electricity production in Iraq averages 4,700 megawatts, a total that exceeds pre-war levels, servicing an estimated 14 million Iraqi homes.

markg8 said...

Tell you what, go to any Iraqi blogs linked at Iraq the model at random and read them. Then tell me how thrilled Iraqis are to be occupied. I did that to see if their links were to all the happy Iraqis you'd like to imagine there are. I looked at one teenage girl's blog, nothing but pics of kittens scrolling all the way down the page until there was a written post by this girl titled "Our lives are hell".

As for the Vietnamese, they fought the French, they fought the Japanese, they fought the French again and they fought the Americans .
And once they got their country they stopped fighting. There was no South Vietnamese guerilla movement which I'm sure St. Ronnie would have been more than happy to back just as he did in Central America. Where did the democratically elected government of South Vietnam go? Did they ply the halls of Congress trying to get financing to gin up an insurgency in the 70's and 80's? Last I heard Thieu was retired comfortably in London, probably on gold looted from the South Vietnamese treasury and Key owned a Holiday Inn in San Diego.

Peter UK said...

As for the Vietnamese, they fought the French, they fought the Japanese, they fought the French again and they fought the Americans .
And once they got their country they stopped fighting.

No mark,the Vietnamese fought the Chinese and invaded Cambodia

Another senior moment Mark?

markg8 said...

Petey your ironbrained stupidity never ceases to amaze. Yes the Vietnamese fought their age old enemies the Red Chinese and Mao's little friends the Khmer Rouge. They did NOT continue their own civil war. Once the North took Saigon their long national nightmare was over, which is all most of them really wanted.

Peter UK said...

"As for the Vietnamese, they fought the French, they fought the Japanese, they fought the French again and they fought the Americans .
And once they got their country they stopped fighting"

"Yes the Vietnamese fought their age old enemies the Red Chinese and Mao's little friends the Khmer Rouge. "

How is this in any way "stopped fighting"? Parsing this to mean Civil war, is pretty lame even for a low grade troll.
You really must read your stream of consciousness posts,a self contradicting troll is par for the course but leave room for the rest of us to have fun.

terrye said...

Mark:

You are a moron. No one wants to be occupied, but they want the terrorists and the Baathists even less.

Needless to say when we can leave we will.

I remember when the Iraqi blogger Salman Pax asked George Galloway if the fact that more than 80% of the Iraqi people wanted the coalition to stay until the Iraqis could provide for their own security meant any difference to him, Galloway did not deny it, he just said it was not the job of the coalition to provide security for the Iraqis.

I guess the left thinks that the Iraqis are hoping the west will abandom then again, like they did after the Gulf War so that hundreds of thousands of them can end up in mass graves. Yep, I am sure that is what they want.

I remember the antiwar people during Viet Nam because I was one of them. When the South fell and the communists took over and starting killing people, a lot of the leaders in the US were happy about it. They did not care about the boat people or the reeducation camps and they were completely indifferent to the Khmer Rouge. They wanted the communists to win.

It disgusted me enough at the time that I became disillusioned with the American Left. The fact that they are still out there peddling their sanitized view of the Killing Fields and the boat people speaks volumes of their pathological flights of fancy.

BTW, mark, if we were going to set back and let the fascists have their way in Iraq you guys really should have started burning flags back in the 90's when the left still pretended they were not fascists themselves.

But no, Clinton pretty well made confilct inevitable and then sat back and let someone else do the heavy lifting.

Plausible deniability. In a decade if Iraq actually works out the Democrats will be saying the whole thing was their idea in the first place. That is how they operate.

They managed to take all the credit for the Civil Rights Act didn't they?

Barry Dauphin said...

And the North Vietnamese treated all the South Vietnamese as brothers and provided for their every need and and wanted nothing but the best for them and there were never any boat people....

terrye said...

and the Viet Cong were only interested in doing the right thing and never wiped out any villages or anything and the communists all over the world came out in loud protests when the Khmer Rouge began systematic slaughter.......

Peter UK said...

..and a thousand flowers bloomed.

markg8 said...

So why don't all you revionist historians and self hating former lefties advocate starting another Vietnam War? I'm sure they'll greet us with flowers and candy this time. Sure you'll be safe at home behind your keyboards but your conscience will be salved in the blood of more untold thousands if not millions.

Make up your minds will ya? You say the insurgents can't win in Iraq and I agree with that. Is there any point in imflaming the situation by killing more? You say we have to stay until we win them over. We don't have enough of anything that CAN win them over. If we did don't you think we would have tried it already? What we're doing now doesn't work unless you like pointless arab on arab violence and American reprisals which admit it, a lot of you do. This is your vengeance for 9/11. Proving to arabs in general that we can make their lives a living hell. That's sick, deeply, deeply sick.

Peter UK said...

"You say the insurgents can't win in Iraq and I agree with that. Is there any point in imflaming the situation by killing more? "

Mark,that is hilarious,are you accusing the Coalition of having a "Shoot to Inflame" policy?

I can imagine a conversation on D Day,"Sir the Germans are getting quite miffed,perhaps we should withdraw".

terrye said...

mark:

Why would I want to start a war in Viet Nam? I am not French.

I am just telling you that there were a lot of communists in the American left. After all it was decades ago and being a communist was kinda cool.

In fact Chomsky loved the Khmer Rouge.

And if you think the insurgents can not win in Iraq then why not allow the elections to take place and the Iraqis to finish up building their Security forces?

This is where the left has shot itself in the foot, by aligning itself with the head hackers and demanding an immediate withdrawal they have actually created a situation in which it is less likely that we can leave right away.

These guys will follow us home, you are fooling yourself if you think they will not.

The terrorists are fanatics, they can not win but that did not keep Osama from sending those planes and if they percieve we are weak they will use that weakness. And everyone will suffer.

In truth I think it will take a long time before Iraq really settles down and there may be a low level fight there for years. But then the same is true for Afghanistan.

Peter UK said...

It is only the presence of Coalition forces that prevents the Kurdish and Shia majority,doing,ah,what shall we call it,a little demographic readjustment.
By staying and overseeing the democratic process the Coalition is making a peaceful Iraq more likely,not less.
The Democratic election ploy of cutting and running is deeply,deeply despicable and unprincipled.

Seneca the Younger said...

So why don't all you revionist historians and self hating former lefties advocate starting another Vietnam War?

Because a skillful carpenter sometimes uses a hammer, and sometimes uses an awl.

I'm sure they'll greet us with flowers and candy this time. Sure you'll be safe at home behind your keyboards but your conscience will be salved in the blood of more untold thousands if not millions.

Actually, Mark, I volunteered during Viet Nam (failed the physical), and spent many years doing intelligence work.

Make up your minds will ya? You say the insurgents can't win in Iraq and I agree with that.

Sadly, Mark, you're wrong again: under certain conditions the insurgents can win.

Is there any point in imflaming the situation by killing more?

Yes: stopping killing the insurgents and leaving is the condition under which they could win.

Peter UK said...

Mark Garrity didn't serve of course,never has, never will,he just likes giving the impression that somehow HE won't be safe at home behind his keyboard,but that's where he has been since he proudly betrayed the Vietnamese.
How many "untold thousands if not millions" perished because of that despicable betrayal?

Buddy Larsen said...

Hey, if that Iraqi girl with the kitty cats says her life is hell, then I say give OPEC to Osama and fall back to America First.

Screw China & Japan, too--and lets kill WalMart and get the UAW back up and running so our most vulnerable Americans can be kept on the blue plantations, poor and pliable!

But, shouldn't we first try to ascertain if maybe the kid with the kittys and the hellish life might be squabbling with Ma & Pa over hoodoo the dishes?

Buddy Larsen said...

"Saint Ronnie"--I was down there, for fluidos de Perforacion and CorpoVen, in the 70s and 80s. I know what the Sandinistas were up to, and I know what JFKerry and Tom "oops, that wasn't combat?" Harkin were doing to help Daniel Ortega, and I know how hugely much better the Latin American economies--and the people who make the markets, from fruit stall vendors to copper mine workers--have been doing since "Saint Ronnie" got rid of the commies for them.

The little people that Kerry and Harkin were down there pretending to care about (as they worked their DC politcal angles) didn't have a chance before "Saint Ronnie" took them in hand--and the people who're invested in the Kerry 'sort-of' America never forgave him for the great humanitarian work.

Or, more precisely, for doing it at the head of the party that prevents them from being the ONLY party.

So, hate Ronnie viciously...until Bush43 comes along, and then float "Well, we *loved* Ronnie, so if we hate Bush, it MUST be because Bush is *really* bad."

Truth is, the American Left is *the* monumental global disaster of the last half of the 20th century for all humanity. And this characterization is extremely clear, seen from outside our borders.

markg8 said...

You move coalition troops out of Iraq and you rob the insurgents of their single best and only effective recruiting argument among their countrymen. They are sick of the war, the sanctions, the corruption, the idiotic attempt to privatize and give away their oil patrimony and don't trust us. They want to use that wealth to rebuild their country. Of necessity they are the most secular of arab countries though the longer we stay the more that changes. Our troops don't protect them. With 155,000 we can't even protect our own supply lines.

If you have so much faith in the Iraqi people then show it. Why you have faith in the civilian leadership of this country to do the right thing when they have screwed up time after time I don't know. Don't kid yourselves, it isn't the Noam Chomskys who have changed America's position on this war. Who listens to him anyway? It's like me claiming you're in thrall to David Duke, talk about strawmen. We see the lies, the mistakes, the corruption, the hemorraging debt and the disaster Bush has made of the occupation. His radical rightwing thinktankers brought their hairbrained assumptions and hatred of arabs with them and it shows. And instead of changing course, he proposes to keep coalition soldiers in harm's way until he can pass this disaster off as somebody else's fault or at least somebody else's responsibility. Just as he's done at every other stage of his life.

markg8 said...

Buddy here is the post from the 14 year old girl in Baghdad I wrote about.

You can see the rest of her blog here ya sick f*ck.

http://baghdadgirl.blogspot.com/

Friday, August 26, 2005
We Are Living In Hell
Hello,
It has been along time since I posted my last subject, the situation here do not help to write at all, the temperature is very high, no electricity, we have only 4 hours of electrical power in the 24 hours of the day, no security, no water, no peace and there are always explosions and bombcars, as an example, four days ago a big explosion happened near my house, it was done by abombcar, this bombcar cost people life's, broke windows, and brought fear.
Our windows were broken and so are windows of most houses in the neighborhood but thanks to God we are all fine but who knows in the next time we may get hurt, after the explosion we cleaned the broken windows so no one get hurt from it and so did our neighbors and some of them were out side wondering what happened, we were expecting that the American soldiers will search our house and the other houses in the neighborhood, but they didn't and that is weird because this is not the first explosion happened here, any way tings went back to normal few hours later but people died, Two of those who died were children about 10 years of age and they use to bring us fuel for our electrical generator...

Stay safe

Raghda

Peter UK said...

"You move coalition troops out of Iraq and you rob the insurgents of their single best and only effective recruiting argument among their countrymen."

Mark Garrity,who gained all his military experience by RUNNNING AWAY has spoken.

By the way Mook do you mean this Raghda ?

Peter UK said...

Mark Garrity,until he can pass this disaster off as somebody else's fault or at least somebody else's responsibility. Just as he's done at every other stage of his life..

Sounds like projection to me.

markg8 said...

Petey you're just pointing out your own hypocrisy chickenhawk.

Peter UK said...

Mark Garrity,
No ,I'm just wondering where a hick from the sticks like you gets his geopolitical expertise from.Do you even have a passport?
Don't forget the rules if you didn't serve you can't comment,so stick to plywood as a subject.

Seneca the Younger said...

You move coalition troops out of Iraq and you rob the insurgents of their single best and only effective recruiting argument among their countrymen.

Oh, nonsense. The religious fascists, perhaps. I don't think so, honestly; there never seems to be a lack of reasons why the religious fascists want to attack the US, and as we've seen if they don't attack us in the Middle East, they're perfectly happy to come to us. But the religious fascists and the suicidal aren't being recruited in Iraq anyway; if we withdrew to Kuwait or Dubai or something, they'd just go to Kuwait and Dubai.

(And Murtha's idea of moving them to Okinawa is just embarrassing; he's a field officer for Gods' sakes, he knows better than that.)

But the rest of them are just revanchists: they're not motivated by the occupation, they're motivated by it having been their ox that got gored. They don't get free money and the tenderloin any more, they're having to share in the whole steer.

Seneca the Younger said...

Oh, by the way, Mark --- Ragdha's post was from August, and its talking about life being made hell by the revanchists and fascists, not the US. That's why the revanchists are having such a rough time with general popularity in Iraq.

Peter UK said...

Seneca.
Ragdha's post was all over the net in August...read it before.

Mark Garrity is a dime a line Demobot.

Buddy Larsen said...

I'm a sick f**K? When the likes of you have spent a lifetime gladly looking the other way and whistling a merry tune while the Saddams of the world fill up mass graves with hundreds of thousands--millions--of murdered, tortured human beings, men, women, and children, because the Gov't Party is more likely to toss you a little work in a federal attic or two?

markg8 said...

Seneca in case you haven't noticed Islamist terrorism isn't relegated to Iraq. The Iraq war didn't stop the attacks in London, Spain, Turkey, etc. etc. If anything they inspired them.

The Baathists who don't want to give up their "tenderloin" etc. make up a tiny minority of the population. The foreign jihadis an even tinier subset. Every government our "allies" put together has to move to the green zone as they are immediately viewed as collaborators.
Not just by the Sunnis but by everyone. Let's not make the same mistake with the next government.
There's 20+ million who want us out and 20,000 or so who want to keep us there as targets. Accede to the will of the people or admit you could care less what they want. Admit that wrecking a major Arab country is what you want, not democracy.

markg8 said...

Ragdha's a 14 year old girl who only knows she's terrorized. As afraid of bombers as she is of American soldiers coming to search her house and possibly drag off her male relatives. She's caught in the middle with no way out. God help her if she is kidknapped and raped (an all too common occurance) because her own menfolk will kill her if she is recovered.

She and her grandparents tried to escape to the UK. They were turned down by the UK embassy in Jordan because her grandfather carried too much cash. Others were denied for not having enough. Neither she or her grandfather care much for the Brits anymore.

Buddy Larsen said...

I call utter and swinishly contemptible fraud on anyone who smart enough to write MarkG8 posts and yet refuses--for obvious partisan/domestic/political motives--to admit the reality of truth, and put an enormously heavier weighting upon eliminating a vast perpetual hereditary-state holocaust/genocide apparatus than they put upon whatever temporary--albeit terribly sad--violence that, in lieu of which--by demonstrable historical record of decades of soft-power including a limited demo of hard-power--the legalized fascist state horror would have flourished indefinitely, forever into the future.

Peter UK said...

Buddy,
It's a bit like treading in shit then have the dog call you names.
Mark Garrity is a very distrubed individual,even Jimmy Carter won't sit with him.

Buddy Larsen said...

Would that be Jimmy "Castro's Cocoanut" Carter?

Peter UK said...

Yeah,Michael Moore's footstool.PTBarnum could have made a fortune with these gumbies.

Buddy Larsen said...

300,000 found--so far--in mass graves in Iraq, one million killed in Saddam's invasion of neighborS (both combat and murder), 40,000 unsuspecting civilians the world over murdered in terror by a global gang of death-cultists run by thugs trying to get hold of OPEC,trillions of $$$ of global economic output lost (read as lowered quality-of-life for all humans) and the main thing bothering SmirkG8 is that some kid's granny couldn't organize a trip to the UK.

markg8 said...

Yeah Buddy you're a sick f*ck and a convenient amnesiac. I turned a blind eye? It was St. Ronnie and GHW Bush who propped up Saddam in the 1980s, selling him WMD precursers and showing his scientists how to weaponize them for his filthy little war against Iran. They sold him the helicopters he used to gas the Kurds and shared satellite photography to help him gas Iranian troops. GHW Bush called for an Iraqi uprising to overthrow Saddam after the first Gulf War and then did nothing but watch as he murdered untold thousands when they tried. Finally, finally when the American outrage at freezing Kurd children in the mountains on CNN began unravelling his 90% approval ratings forcing his hand Bush instituted the no fly zones in the north and the south.

All during the 1980s right up until Clinton took office these illustrious Republicans coddled this tinhorn dictator as he committed most if not all of his atrocities, murdering men, women and children to maintain his grasp on power. And they did it because he was the
enemy of their enemy who they were also trading arms for hostages with so the mad mullah Khomeini could continue his side of their ghastly war that killed at least a million people. Saddam was their goon, the counterpoint to Iran after the Shah was overthrown.

Yeah Buddy you're a sick f*ck and you could care less about Iraqis. Never mind that the occupation is what keeps the insurgency going. Maybe you have a little stake in a contracting outfit. Maybe you have a cousin who is pulling down 150k guarding some general. Maybe you just like the idea of killing Arabs.
Maybe you agree with Ann Coulter and think we need to fight for oil. Maybe it's your wounded fragile psyche that can't bear the thought of losing another fubared war. But it ain't about the Iraqis, democracy or any of that. For you they're just pawns in the great game. Always have been always will. So save the sanctimonious b*llshit.

Seneca the Younger said...

Seneca in case you haven't noticed Islamist terrorism isn't relegated to Iraq. The Iraq war didn't stop the attacks in London, Spain, Turkey, etc. etc. If anything they inspired them.


What? Wasn't that my point, ie, that Islamic fascism doesn't confine its terrorism to Iraq and didn't start it with the invasion?

As to "if anything it inspired them", I allowed for that possibility and explained why I don't think it's likely.

Honest, I begin to think you are a 'bot, if only because you seem to respond with rehashes of old arguments when the details get confusing.

Seneca the Younger said...

The Baathists who don't want to give up their "tenderloin" etc. make up a tiny minority of the population. The foreign jihadis an even tinier subset.

Yes, exactly.

Not just by the Sunnis but by everyone. Let's not make the same mistake with the next government.
There's 20+ million who want us out and 20,000 or so who want to keep us there as targets. Accede to the will of the people or admit you could care less what they want. Admit that wrecking a major Arab country is what you want, not democracy.


Admit that you're setting up straw men because you keep losing on the facts. Admit that you're intellectually overdrawn and morally bankrupt. Admit that you don't care for the wogs anyway, you just want your side to win politically.

Hey, this is kind of fun --- and a lot easier than making an argument. I see why it appeals to you so.

Peter UK said...

Buddy,
You are wasting your time,Mark Garrity has no remorse for the millions of Vietnamese he helped torture and murder,why should he care about the Iraqis?

Have you suddenly noticed the concern for Arabs,has his cheque arrived from Saddam's defence team?

terrye said...

I wish we could ban Mark, he is an asshole.

markg8 said...

Seneca 20+ million Iraqis are strawmen? Hardly. And what facts am I losing on? The Iraqi people don't want to be occupied anymore than you or I would. Especially by a corrupt administration that lets even more corrupt contractors who answer to no one run the show. If you gave a damn about Iraqis you'd be against it too.

Yeah I want to win politically because I don't want my country torturing people and lying about it.
I don't want my country running off to war based on lies. Look at the cesspool Republicans have made out of DC. From Cunningham, DeLay, Frist, Rumsfeld all the way up to Cheney and Bush. You're damn right I want them out of office. They're wrecking the country.

Peter UK said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Buddy Larsen said...

So easy to get the little teapot perking!

Lessee, your post, you got two things:

one, I'm a profiteer? Nope, in no way, shape or form. I'm just a semi-retired livestock hand out in the sticks. Austin grew so fast toward me that when i finally got tired of beans, and got #3 of 4 thru UTexas (#2/nation), real-estate had American dreamed me up to where I could sell the biz and live--frooglee--off the proceeds. I'm looking for another venture, tho--if I move to Joisy, reckon you can get me into the contruction materials-that-fall-off-trucks business?

Two, nothing the USA does or has done will ever be anything but criminal until we put your thugs back into office. So we helped Saddam before he became a Mad Butcher? Yes, indeedy--didn't want anything but a stalemate in the Iraq/Iran War--what would YOU have done? Back Iran to victory, and have had your latest googled-up-history pretend bete-noire, the *theocracy* in place two decades ago? Here's your analogy, start with Lincoln providing public services to slave states until April 1861. The sick F**K! Let's look at all the international trade ties between FDR and the Axis up until the Axis went a-butchering. Same deal, my little petty street urchin, same deal as Saddam. Go steal a history book.

terrye said...

BTW Mark, it was a Republican president, not Clinton who finally went after Saddam. What is more he had fewer Democrats voting to push the Butcher of Baghdad out of Kuwait than Bush 2 had to remove him from power.

So what is this "until Clinton came along" crap?

This is so typical of liberals...we supported getting rid of him after we supported to leave him alone before we supported getting rid of him....

whatever.

Saddam's real friends were never the US or the UK, which is borne out by facts [not your paranoid ravings], his real friends were the same people who turned the UN food for oil program into a scam.


And since then come the lies:

6,800 Children die a month because of sanctions...to be replaced by 100,000 civilians dead, to be replaced by Abu Nidal and Abu Abbas and Zarqawi were nto terrorists until the US got there. Before that they taught preschool.

Tell me, when does the left say they are sorry? I remember when the Soviets took it upon themselves to invade Afghanistan, there was no flag burning. The lefties could have cared less that the communists killed a million Afghanis.

How many people do the communists get to kill? How many people do the fascists like Saddam get to slaughter and drive from their country before people like Mark stop and think maybe there is something in this world worse than a Republican?

I want the troops out of Iraq as badly as any shrieking lefty, but I want them to leave when the people of Iraq have a fighting chance to survive and their mission is completed.

That apparently is not what mark wants, he seems to be terrified that we might succeed.

you are a disgrace mark. If you had a choice no doubt you would put Saddam right back in there and if he put that 14 year old girl through a plastic shredder and her family in a mass grave you would not lift a finger to help her. Hypocrite.

Peter UK said...

Terrye,
Makes you wonder what Mark is doing hanging round fourteen year olds...he is forty nine!

Buddy Larsen said...

"They're wrecking the country."
No, YOU and your ilk are all that's wrong with the country.

You think every 12 yr old can't see thru your list of politically-attacked administration folks? (you can have Cunningham, he DID do bad--the rest are trying to preserve your nation for your ingrate ass)

You people would go after Mother Theresa if she voted against your candidate. She'd be "dishonestly giving her life for the poor", somehow. You'd find a way.

Democrats are fine, but you BDS nutjobs really *are* making the world sick.

Wot a sanctimonious humanitarian BS act, wrapped in the American flag. Jeezis Kee-rist Almighty.

terrye said...

Most of Iraqis have faith in the future and most Iraqis are glad Saddam is gone. According to the polls.

If guys like mark had their way most Iraqis would not have a future and Saddam would still be in power, so why should we think mark speaks for most Iraqis?

Do they want to be occupied? No one ever said they did. But that does not mean they want to be abandoned either.

Remember Katrina? People were outraged that men with guns were not in Lousiana sooner.Does that mean the US was going to occupy New Orleans?

When the new government is elected they can decide what to do, but the truth is to someone like mark, Saddam was more legitimate than anyone the Iraqis might vote for.

Peter UK said...

Buddy,
"They're wrecking the country." how would Mark Garrity know? To him it would be SNAFU.
Are you looking for plywood? Good condition,slight water damage.

terrye said...

Speaking of wrecking the country.... in terms of convictions, indictiments, etc the Clinton administration wins hands down..The Bushies are not even close.

We got so used to the soap opera in the Oval office that it barely registered when Sandy Burglar crammed classified documents into his pants and took them home to shred them....

It was just oh well, that is Slick Willie and the gang.

Seneca the Younger said...

Seneca 20+ million Iraqis are strawmen?

Mark, look up what a "straw man argument" is and get back to me. I hate having a battle of wits with the half-armed.

As to the facts on which you're losing, if you go back through the thread you'll find a number of points at which you've made a factual assertion which turns out not to correspond with the facts. I've pretty consistently marked those as "Markg8:" and "Reality:".

As to the rest, well, obviously we disagree. I disagree with my collegues as well, because I don't think the BDS people are wrecking the country. Believing that would mean believing they're consequential enough to wreck the country, and they aren't.

Buddy Larsen said...

Yep, that's what the PRC-military crews inside their shiny new "skipped-a-janet Reno/win ho lee-decade-of-development" nuclear missile subs say:

"Ahhh, this is Slick Willy and the gang!"

terrye said...

seneca:

Actually I think they are doing the Demcoratic party more damage than they are the country.

markg8 said...

Buddy a little consistency would be nice. You take off your oh so sincere "We're doing it for the Iraqis" hat and put on your Henry Kissinger realpolitik beanie and declare we had to support both sides in the 1980s because we needed a bloody stalemate. Maybe if the Dulles brothers hadn't engineered the overthrow of the Iranian government back in the 50s for the Shah we wouldn't have had any of those problems in the first place.
We never needed to make enemies out of any of these peoples. We still don't.

We didn't make friends with Saddam before he was a butcher, we helped him become the butcher he was. You've seen the pic of Rumsfeld shaking his hand.

As for criminals you only have to look as far as Austin. Isn't that where DeLay is under indictment? I only calls 'em as I sees 'em.

If you want a history lesson about FDR, the Neutrality Act, his fights with isolationists for Lend Lease it'll have to wait. If you'd like information on Prescott Bush and his father in law laundering money for the Nazi Party in Germany into the fall of 1942 that'll have to wait too.

Peter UK said...

Terrye,
Indeed the more the country sees of the Tofu Eating Surrender Monkeys the better.Howard Deeeeaan,John F Kerry,John Murtha,Mark the Gimp Garrity,what a Surrenderthon that would be.

Buddy Larsen said...

Peter, organized gangs aree stealing building materials all over the Katrina-abandoned zone. they're stripping ten grand worth of plywood off damaged buildings every night, just around New Orleans and Biloxi.

Is this G8 the same nitwit that disappeared to "Costa Rica" for a few weeks--and is now back in Joisy hawking water-damaged black-market plywood?

Har-fricken-har--our conscience-driven, big-hearted, full-of-civic-duty Marky-Mark?

"Hi, I'm Mr. Rodgers...I hope you can't say "Bill-of-Lading".

Peter UK said...

We didn't make friends with Saddam before he was a butcher, we helped him become the butcher he was. You've seen the pic of Rumsfeld shaking his hand.

Well John F Kerry was really cozy with the Vietcong.

Buddy Larsen said...

Well, okay, Mark, since you quit being quite so nasty, i won't sic my Secret Service pals on you.

Sure--you're right--bad meddling by the West in the Mideast since WWI.

Arab despots were for sale, and ours only had to meet one criterion--they weren't with the USSR.

The USSR, as you would know if you hadn't been jackin' hubcaps during the era, was an existential threat to this nation especially and the globe in general.

So, realpolitik it was.

But, do we pay penance by flushing ourselves and the new generations of Arabs down the terlit?

Or do we go forward, unable to change the past, only able to try to do what's right, going forward?

And yes, Austin, the 'blue"county in a sea of red--IS a political cesspool.

Buddy Larsen said...

Austin = Travis County--must set THAT right.

Peter UK said...

Buddy,
Yes,something to do with the Costa living,he keeps running does the Gimp.

Makes you wonder how he earns a living,he spends so much time on the computer..he's one of the poor people don't you know?

Buddy Larsen said...

But, you really should go put the plywood back.

terrye said...

mark:

buddy is not the one that is wearing all the hats my friend.

Besides, why is it mutually exclusive to help the Iraqis and ourselves?

For years and years I have been hearing about blowback and the fact that the US has not done more to deal with the root problems of terrorims, etc and that is why there is terrorism yada yada.

So if we help the Iraqis to live in a country with a political system the likes of which most westerners take for granted and assume is their right...why wouldn't that help us?

Most people today say that if we had dealt differently with Germany and forgiven the debt, etc after WW1 there might not have been a WW2.

It is called forward thinking.

Buddy Larsen said...

BTW, anybody who wants to understand Mark's list of charges--the Prescott Bush/nazi bit and all--can type in their browser window [www.google.com] and follow the pointers to the potpourri of articles on those subjects. Don't read the nuyjobs, stay with reputable sources, and see what all Mark "forgot". I'd do it, but, jeez, it's like vacuuming--too easy, and too time consuming. Better to just avoid walking on the floor. Put your computer next to the fridge, get a good roller chair, stop all that "moving around" silliness.

Buddy Larsen said...

"nuyjobs": people who are crazy to redo the Nam/DC Nutcraker Suite "Dying Swan" act. Seasonal!

(started out a typo tho)

markg8 said...

Cunningham pled guilty to taking bribes for setting up unqualified slimeballs with Homeland Security contracts so there's no ignoring that. DeLay pretty blatantly broke Texas campaign laws to get his majority in the TX legislature that allowed them to gerrymander their way to keeping a majority in the US House. Frist looks like he obviously engaged in the same kind of insider trading that got Martha Stewart sent to the hoosegaw. Karl Rove looks like he's going to be indicted any day now. Dick Cheney's chief of staff is under indictment for lying to a grand jury about outing a CIA agent. These are just some of your stalwarts, your beacons of democracy and that's just the tip of the iceberg.

Unless you have a lot of faith in electronic paperless voting machines
you ought to be scared Seneca. This makes Dan Rostenkowski's running off with $20,000 worth of stamps, Jim Wright pawning off his book for extra cash and Monica's stained blue dress look like peanuts in comparison. The American people aren't going to put up with this much longer. Even Dennis the Peasant to his credit can't stomach it anymore.

But hey for the diehard partisans here? Nothing much to see or care about. What's missing...sex? Hmmmm...now we know one of the same guys who bribed Cunningham set up hospitality suites for his congressional bedfellows at the Watergate and later at another hotel right near the capital. As Josh Marshall says "what possible need could congressmen and senators and their staffers have for access to private hotel suites near the Capitol registered in someone else's name?"

terrye said...

Well the history of the West and the Muslim world is very long and there is enough sin to go around.

How far back do we go?

792? The Crusades? 1492 and the expulsion of the Muslims [and Jews]from Spain?

The gates of Vienna in 1683? Constantinople falling to the Muslims and becoming Istanbul?

Osama can live back there and so can the strutting Arab strong men... but maybe the people of the Middle East want to be a part of the world in a way that does not always accompany a picture of an oil rig or a burning car or a head hacker ranting God is Great in Arabic.

BTW I have time for all this today because it is a freaking Winter Wonderland out there.

But I have to go to work tomorrow.

damn the luck.

Peter UK said...

Buddy,
Mark Garrity works so hard for the socialist cause,you would think one of the Democratc billionaires could throw him some loose change.I mean they give their hairdressers more than they give the poor proles.

markg8 said...

Not that it's anybody's business fellas but I spent the previous few weeks in Illinois watching my mom recover from a triple bypass, serious infections and helping my dad out around the house. That and I cooked for 8 on Thanksgiving. I'm not really pleased with the damn hospital at all. Since she was moved to the resperatory rehab facility late last week they've discovered she had a dislocated shoulder and maybe a umbilical hernia which is probably a big part of her problems.

terrye said...

mark:

I am not defending Cunningham, who would? But puhleaze.... in terms of bribes or whatever the Demcorats are not angels. Remember Jim Wright? Wasn't that his name? The Democrat that had to give up a leadership position in the House about a decade or so ago? I mean hell, we can play this game forever.

And this fantasy that Democrats have going with the voting machines is typical. It is like the polls, make sure you poll too many Democrats so that the poll says what you want and then got all pissed when reality hits. Democrats are like that woman saying "Do I look fat in this"? They don't want to hear the truth.

Demcorats get caught cheating, red handed all the time. I mean it is embarassing and they just act like some guy who farts and then pretends that if he ignores it, no one will smell it.

I left the Democrat party because of this kind of silly crap.

For instance, Halliburton. I grew up in a small town in OK and Halliburton was one of the major employers there. It has been around for years and years. Clinton gave them a no bid contract in Kosovo in the 90's and the bid was extended to Iraq. They are one of the largest defence contractors in America and they would be whether Cheney ever worked at the company or not. If Tom Ridge would have been the VP instead of Cheney, Halliburton would have gotten the same deal and no one would have even made an issue of it.

But the Democrats all eager to find some weird little conspiracy theory make an issue of it, oh yeah, the Bushies went through all this for a contract for a company that Cheney used to be associated with. That is so STUPID.

Really. And btw, I think DeLay will get off and I think Earle is a hack and I think Wilson and Plame are liars.

Peter UK said...

Mark,
DeLay doesn't sound a very Iraqi name,you seem to have wandered off the poin,if you were ever on it.
I agree about political scandal it is worse than a Senator having a dead girl in his car.

terrye said...

Mark:

I am sorry about your mom. I know how it is.

I watched both of my parents die.

Buddy Larsen said...

I'm just amazed at the loop these birds have running. It's like, I charge you, Peter, with inside trading, and you eventually beat the charge--because you didn't DO it. But you have to prove everytthing you didn't do, the longer you stay in politics, the more success you have at it. meanwhile, the trumped-ups are repeated endlesslyas fact by the virtue-free, and when you finally beat the charge, well, you're just a lucky crook who 'beat the charge'.

Mark, you say people are getting sick of it--you're damn right, and what I've said just above is what they're getting sick of.

Back before the Dems sunk so low into bribery and intimidation, this politicizing morality, and criminalizing politics, hadn't been seen in this country since Teapot Dome and Tammany Hall.

Your little nothing of a 'stained dress' was *The* leader of the Free World (the iconic Quintessential American), in the Oval, with a kid his daughter's age, after which he lied to the courts--and all of it on TV in front of the nation's children.

Glad you see that as a trifle, when someone like Frist sells some stock when he thinks it's topped--like we all do--is serious crime.

Martha Stewart? I think she got screwed royally. Did Frist do that? Who *was* that prosecutor?

TERRYE--glad you got a snow day! :-)

markg8 said...

Jim Wright is long gone from congress as well he should be. But comparing a majority leader who broke congressional rules to make some side cash with bulk sales of his vanity books to one that broke campaign laws and laundered campaign cash through the RNC is a stretch.

There is a stench around DeLay that goes back all the way to the Marianas. Anybody who defends him really needs a wider reading list.

Peter UK said...

Meanwhile back in IRAQ things are improving despite the Democrats disappearing over the horizon.

Buddy Larsen said...

The stained dress--let me tell you about the world across the borders. they don't think "bad Clinton"--they know Clinton's type--they think "What a bunch of stupid, shallow, unstable idiots Americans are to have elected one of those types!"

And they're partly--your part--RIGHT!

Unfortunately, the world's truly dangerous take these clues as signals to "go hot" on us.

Why us? Rivalry--we compete everywhere--but also, like you, just plain old semi-psychotic jealousy and envy.

I'm truly sorry about your family troubles--been there, too--but, y'know, GWB didn't ask to be born--and he didn't order up rich parents. It AIN"T his fault! And he's tried hard to pay back his luck. The Delta Dart was a widowmaker, he's done the unpopular but right thing over and over as Tex Gov and as pres (not perfect, but good), he tithes TEN PERCENT of total income to charity (check and see what GOP vs Dems "give"--kerry/Heinz doesn't break into the one percent area), and in no way deserves the extreme, psychotic, perpetual lies you guys spend all your time promulgating into "familiar charges".

terrye said...

mark:

In terms of indictments and convictions the Clinton administration was the most corrupt in a century.

There were 15 convctions out of Whitewter alone.

Two cabinet members indicted.

Hillary Clinton said "I don't know" or "I don't remember" more than 250 times under oath.

Hands down.

As for Delay, I don't much like the guy but he is not as bad as Blanco or the idiot Governor in New Jersey who put his male lover who was not even a citizen in charge of Homeland Security.

And Reid took money from Indian Tribes too, that is going to cause both parties trouble. The McCAin Feingold Act was a disaster.

And ofcourse Chuck Schumer's aides stealing Steele's social security number and getting his credit report.

Get off your high horse. And yeah people are tired of the self righteous Democrats slashing tires and taking bribes and acting like the walk on water.

Buddy Larsen said...

Electronic vote theft? You, from the party of ten million paranoid investigative lawyers, can think this? GOOD GOD, Man! Get a GRIP!

terrye said...

Buddy:

Bush is not as rich as John Kerry is; if Kerry had won he and his wife would have been the richest first couple in the history of the country.

And then of course there are the caviar socialists in Manhattan and Hollywood who think that if we just slap another $20 bucks a month on the welfare check and put more people on medicaid then they will have done their bit.

They just love the little people who raise their children for them and clean up after them and walk the dog when they jump on the jet and burn up a thousand gallons of jet fuel to go on a shopping trip.

The Republicans are so declasse.

markg8 said...

Buddy the SEC is investigating Frist not the Democratic party so get off your high horse. You don't want politics criminalized then tell your representatives to stop breaking the law. Simple as that. 12 out of 15 politicans Ronnie Earle has prosecuted have been Dems. Tell me again how he's a partisan hack.

What happened with Clinton's impeachment? Gingrich stepped down when Larry Flynt threatened to expose him for shacking up with his
31 year old office manager while his second wife, his ex 7th grade math teacher, the one he dumped his first wife for while she was in the hospital with cancer, sat at home in
Georgia. His replacement Bob Livingston left office a few weeks later when Flynt threatened to expose him for having 4 affairs while in congress.

While all that was going on Saddam took the opportunity to kick the UN inspectors out. When Clinton bombed the last vestiges of Saddam's WMD program for that almost all Republicans lambasted him of doing it as a distraction.

So puhleaze let me know why I should think any Republican politician is serious about his governmental duties.

Peter UK said...

JFK owes his election to more than Mr Giancana, Cook County

Buddy Larsen said...

It is said that the reason the criminal mind has no conscience is that it lacks the capacity to understand that all other minds are not like their own.

If you can believe in such an enveloping conspiracy, then what you're saying to me is that you'd love to pull something like that off yourself--and would, if you could.

The thought that most people would never ever game the Constitution, is evidently beyond your imagination.

terrye said...

Mark:

Well I was a Democrat until Clinton sent me over the edge..

But I am not so pissed at him about Monica. He was a serial womanizer and no doubt if he had been a Republican he would neve would have made it to the White House. The rape allegation alone would have buried him and while the media might lie for Clinton, they would never lie for a Republican. The double standard is breathtaking.

I think the Republicans should have settled for censure of Clinton myself and I find Clinton's taking money from the Chinese to more disturbing than his being a sexual predator.

As for Frist, I think the whole thing is silly, from what I hear there is nothing to it. I think that a lot of this stuff is just politics.

Buddy Larsen said...

SEC has no power to to refuse a suit. It's not a court. If it gets complaints, it investigates. Like the sheriff--if you call, he comes. May not be squat going on but somebody trying to fry an enemy, but he can't make that judgement. It's "job description".

Peter UK said...

Terrye,
"if Kerry had won he and his wife would have been the richest first couple in the history of the country."

With the distinction of both of them having married money.

Peter UK said...

"When Clinton bombed the last vestiges of Saddam's WMD"

Ah yes the Asprin factory...a slight diversion fro adultery.

Buddy Larsen said...

Like your daily mention of Rummy meeting Saddam. If you'd gone to high school with Son of Sam, would you be a serial killer? Your reliance on that photo makes me feel like an idiot for wasting the day answering you.

terrye said...

Buddy:

It is actually the Free Masons, they run the world. There is something comforting about conspiracy. It explains so much.

The amazing thing is if Clinton had taken out Osama when he had the chance, there might not have been a 9/11.

And if the Democrats and their partisan friends in the media {isn't it shocking the way the NYT always endorses a Democrat?] had put half as much energy into dealing with Saddam and cleaning up the UN years ago as they have into trying to destroy Bush there might not have been a war.

The truth is Clinton screwed things up and then dumped it on the next guy. The intel, the food for oil program, the Iraqi Liberation Act followed by futile threats and bombings...just one big Fuck up.

Buddy Larsen said...

Terrye--I agree with you, wrt clinton. Censure was the remedy. Impeachment just made him a glamour-boy outlaw, with his constituency being fed the blue-nose conservative pic so EZ to sell.

markg8 said...

You run a poll right now Buddy and I'd expect Clinton would get about 90-10 over Bush outside these borders. He'd win hands down in a head to head matchup here too. That may rub you the wrong way but get over it.

And if voter verified paper ballots are no big deal then why do so many Repubs in congress fight it? After the BS in OH last year and FL in 2000 why shouldn't we have elections we all can trust? There is no reason in the world why I should have to
trust one of Bush's pioneers like Wally O'Dell, the CEO of Diebold who wrote a memo in 2003 saying he'd do all he could to see Ohio go for Bush in 2004 to tally my votes soley in the netherworld of bits and bytes. I want a paper ballot printed out that I can confirm before I submit it and I want that ballot to be the ballot of record. These manufacturers do that for every ATM they build. There's no reason other than fraud to do otherwise with our votes.

Buddy Larsen said...

T^errye, Clinton damn near took the whole fricken world into a globally-linked crime/government syndicate. the UN stuff is literally breathtaking--it's being damped because it's TOO big. Paul Martin has just fallen in Canada--and look what Bush's OIF exposure did to the fascisto-theme of the (old-model) EU!

terrye said...

If Clinton really destroyed the last of Saddam's weapons I missed the news flash on that.

Was the next president supposed to have psychic abilities or something?

The truth is those weapons could be anywhere, in fact illegal Iraqi weapons have turned up as far away as Holland, at least that is what the UN says. We did not exactly sneak up on the son of a bitch.

And then ofcourse there were the illegal programs with which more weapons could have been made.

1.7 tons of enriched uranium. Thousands of gallons of illegal chemicals etc, centrafuges in rose gradens, and on and on. According to Kay and Deufler there were hundreds of violations.

But that is ok. The world was only kidding and who cares about the Marsh Arabs and the Kurds and the Shia?...if they die they die. In fact I don't doubt that is what they wanted.

Better dead than occupied, right mark?

Peter UK said...

Buddy,
With Clinton the best thing would have been CCTV connected to his wifes office.

Buddy Larsen said...

Mark--what you're saying is that the Dem leaders in DC think yuo're okay for blog-trolling but don't come near them in public. Ths shit you're popping off would have turned the planet inside out by now.

for your own sake, you've GOT to start analyzing the sources and intent of your study material--or else you're gonna flip out, and end up John Hinckley's bitch somewhere under deep lock and key.

terrye said...

What the hell difference does it make what kind of voting machines there are? When/if Democrats lose they are just going to claim they got cheated whether there are paper ballots or not.

I live in a rural county. Poor. We have been using the same machines forever without any problems.

I don't think mark realizes that elections are controlled on local levels. If there are mistakes in Democrat districts, guess who is to blame?

Here in Indiana Evan Bayh is fighting people having to show ID when they vote.

Why is that? Why are so many Democrats fighting the idea of showing ID to vote, even when the state offers to pay?

Mark, if you really believe in a conspiracy that large, I pity you. You are beyond hope or help or reason.

Time and again Democrats make these ludicrous stupid charges, there are investigations and all that and every damn time they are either proven wrong or it just happens to be that they themselves are the most likely to cheat. From Wisconsin Illinois to New Jersey to Ohio the Democrats get caught doing something wrong and they just pretend not to notice.

Just like they pretend that 62 million Americans voted for George Bush, more than Clinton ever got.

IN fact if not for Perot Clinton would never have made it all.

terrye said...

I should say they pretend 62 million people did not vote for Bush..

but needless to say mark will not see that as a typo but a sign from God.

Peter UK said...

Yes Clinton earned worldwide respect,sadly not for the crew of the USS Cole.
This was another problem Slick kicked doen the road for his successor.

Buddy Larsen said...

Paper ballots? You either don't know--or maybe you DO know--that the famous 'chads', so concentrated in 90% Dem precincts, resulted from unsuccessful punch-thrus of STACKED paper ballots.

One-voter with one-ballot couldn't MAKE a 'chad', unless under near-laboratory-fine (delicate)conditions and controls.

Really--your party's 2000 Florida act was like nothing so much as a butglar who goes ballistic when the home-owner drops by.

Later, the only way to not admit it was to invent conspiracy--and the necessary conspiracy then required an over-the-top faux reaction.

And from that far out, you guys just can't find your way back home.

Buddy Larsen said...

Ha! Terrye, God made me say "butglar".

markg8 said...

Hey Buddy I'm not the one who wrote this:

"Clinton damn near took the whole fricken world into a globally-linked crime/government syndicate."

Pretty nutty if ya ask me.

And yes Terrye any vestiges of Saddam's weapons programs were destroyed in Dec. 1998. THAT's what Kay and Deulfer said in their reports despite all the spinning you've evidently read. Condi Rice herself said there's no evidence they were shipped to Syria. As I said long ago in my first post on Roger the draft dodger's site youy'd have to be deranged to think otherwise.

Petey, Petey, Petey, oh forget it you're not worth the time.

Peter UK said...

Terrye,
ID cards would be contrary to the spirit of posthumous suffrage.

Peter UK said...

"Petey, Petey, Petey, oh forget it you're not worth the time."

Stuck for words again Mook,can't think of anything to say to vindicate your hero...which did you admire most Clintons sex life or his ability to lie and cheat?

Come on Mook you're getting paid for this.

Buddy Larsen said...

Dems are like a prison population--can't even do simple crime without getting the graybar hotel, and then once inside, every last one of 'em convinces himself that he's innocent and it's all some giant conspiracy to deprive him of his crack and swag. So, he's ALWAYS really, really outraged.

Buddy Larsen said...

mark--what would YOU call a UN, African continent, & Eurasia thoroughly on the take at the top, and partying down during the one-million murder Rwandan Holocaust??

Peter UK said...

"As I said long ago in my first post on Roger the draft dodger's site"

Clinton the draft dodger was a faster runner than you,he,didn't stop until he got to England.
Actually you should try abroad Mook,get a passport,broaden your horizons.

Buddy Larsen said...

Not to mention the AQ Khan organization, sowing thickly the seeds of Armaggedon while Maddy Albright negotiated a video camera to be put in the NoKo nuke factory--but forgot the extension cord?

All matters tick-tick-ticking away on Bush's plate the instant he took office.

Peter UK said...

Talking of draft dodgers Mook, Howard Dean didn't serve either,you are in good company.

Buddy Larsen said...

If gore had won in 2000, who would've stopped AQ Khan? Gore was ALREADY on the Riady payroll--the 'iced tea defense?--and Osama's 911 plan was ALREADY in motion. Who would've forced Palestine toward moderation without OeF & OIF? Who would've stopped OIF from finishing the UN as a non-criminal organization? Who? Who? Who? If none of this bothers you, Mark, then you must really be a screwed-up dude. hey, sorry, man. Repent. it's never too late.

markg8 said...

Hey Petey maybe I'll take you up on that and come visit you in London so you can say some of those things to my face. Why do I get the impression you'll never answer the door?

Peter UK said...

I'll be waiting for you.

markg8 said...

Buddy put down the bottle. I'm having a hard time making sense of your rambling accusations and acronyms. I don't hang out at many other wingnut sites so I have no idea what you're refering to. I'm going to dinner now. Maybe I'll be back later to see what other droppings you've all left.

Buddy Larsen said...

There's your typical Dem--stand there at the door telling someone what you're gonna do to 'em, while someone takes off the coat, rolls up the sleeves, and knocks ya cold in mid-rant. ;-)

Buddy Larsen said...

Hope you're having fish...and alphabet soup.

Buddy Larsen said...

that's right--google IS weak with acronyms. Too many of 'em...OEF might be Olivia's Eclectic Furniture, or Operation Enduring Freedom.

Okay, Mark--I'm done, too. Boy, did we ever pulverize the living doo-doo out of you! But you win--I goofed off the day and didn't do squat-a-vous to further any capitalistic piggery.

Peter UK said...

Buddy
How many hardcases do you know who spend all their time on a computer?
Mark Garrity is a pathetic little man.

Still he has the troll whine,shovels shit around the cries like a baby when it comes back.

terrye said...

mark:

They never said that at all. In fact Kay said he did not whether or not the weapons had been moved out of the country.

The point is you are going backwards. I remember before the war when Clinton was saying those weapons were there. As late as July 2003 Bill Clinton was saying the weapons were there.

He had two years left in his tern after he bombed Iraq, if he could not prove conclusively in that time that the weapons were there how was Bush supposed to know?

Besides there were several reasons for the invasion, stockpiles were only one and Saddam was defiant to the end. He has no one but himself to blame.

Buddy Larsen said...

"Why do I get the impression you'll never answer the door?"

Because that happens to you up and down your street, 20 or 30 times every day?

Peter UK said...

Buddy
Terrace not Street if that is what Tr is an abrreviation for.

Luther McLeod said...

Well I enjoyed reading this thread, I suppose, though perhaps my time could have been more usefully spent. Mark really didn't bring anything new to the table. But good for you guys to keep in practice.


Sorry Terrye and BL but Peter wins for best line... "political scandal it is worse than a Senator having a dead girl in his car."

Mark, sounds to me as if you have been reading way too much Robert A. Wilson and Pynchon. They have a great ability for creating worlds that don't and have never existed.

Quite honestly you don't sound as if you are a happy person. I know it makes you feel important, bearing the burdens of the entire world on your shoulders, but really, there are other folks out there who are making sure you continue to have the freedom to believe in your fantasy world. Lighten up.

Buddy Larsen said...

That would be these guys, right, Luther?

Seneca the Younger said...

DeLay pretty blatantly broke Texas campaign laws to get his majority in the TX legislature that allowed them to gerrymander their way to keeping a majority in the US House.

Which would be why the campaign finance law charges were just dismissed with prejudice.

Seneca the Younger said...

Frist looks like he obviously engaged in the same kind of insider trading that got Martha Stewart sent to the hoosegaw.

And did so with such amazing prescience that he had started the process of getting Senate Ethics Committee approval to make the sale four months before the bad quarter ended. In other words, his information was so inside that he knew what the results of the quarter would be a month before the quarter started.

See, Mark, this is the problem: you don't keep up on the facts, you just memorize points from, I dunno, Kos or DU or something. So you make assertions like "80 percent of the Iraqis hate us", which can be traced back to DU but for which no one seems to be able to confirm the poll; you assert DeLay blatantly violated Texas campaign finance laws after the Democrat judge in Travis Couny has already dismissed the charges; you don't find out any counter-infomation about Frist. It hurts what remaining credibility you might have --- something of which, having gone through this several times with you already, you don't have much.

Unless you have a lot of faith in electronic paperless voting machines
you ought to be scared Seneca.



Oddly, I'm more in agreement with you than not on this. Happens in my non-blog life I'm a computer security expert --- and I don't mean I'm a sysadmin who knows how to set permissions, I mean I invented some of the major techniques, did a good bit of fairly important work, and am called upon to work on inventing new kinds of secure systems by DoD.

I'm not thrilled with paperless, auditless voting machines at all.

Including the big gray mechanical ones.

But I'm also quite experienced with these issues, and have followed voting issues since I was turned down fo a job on an election commission because I didn't have the right party affiliation. And I'll tell you what: before you worry about supposed possibility of hacking the Diebold machines --- lots of reasons not to worry much about them --- I'd worry about absentee ballots, the voting deceased, multiple voters and so on. The old fashioned ways are best, and there were at least a half dozen races last election that were decided by things like undiscovered absentee ballots found in a drawer.

Again, the issue here is that you're arguing but doing so without being up to date.

And you just repeat the errors: Here, a little further down: But comparing a majority leader who broke congressional rules to make some side cash with bulk sales of his vanity books to one that broke campaign laws and laundered campaign cash through the RNC is a stretch. Those are the charges that were dismissed again. We could go on --- for example, the Texas State Democrats made an identical trasaction, for even mo9re money, at the same time --- but there's no point. The fact is that you're repeating as fact a charge that was never even tried, was dismissed.

Buddy the SEC is investigating Frist not the Democratic party so get off your high horse.

Mark, "the SEC is investigating" isn't a conviction. Ever hear of "innocent until proven guilty"?

For that matter, are you aware that if DeLay were a Democrat, he wouldn't have had to step down as Majority Leader? That's a Republican party rule, not a House rule.

Seneca the Younger said...

t is actually the Free Masons, they run the world.

We don't either.

Buddy Larsen said...

Dems need to take us back to a pre-money, barter-type economy. That way, if some goats were donated to one element of the GOP, and the same exact goats later showed up over-quota somewhere else, then they'd have Ronnie Earle's case against the principle of fungibility.

As is, it's tough not to use "money" in a system that transfers value with "money".

Seneca the Younger said...

And if voter verified paper ballots are no big deal then why do so many Repubs in congress fight it? After the BS in OH last year and FL in 2000 why shouldn't we have elections we all can trust?

Mark: East St Louis. You want to worry about vote fraud, look at a case in which it was proven.

Seneca the Younger said...

Guys, don't stop now! If we keep teasing him, we might get this up to 200 comments!

Peter UK said...

Seneca,
"I'd worry about absentee ballots, the voting deceased, multiple voters and so on."

Does this mean that when the
Dead Democrats take over there could be a deceased President in the Whitehouse.
The ramifications of this are stupendous,everyone since 1776 is eligible.It will certainly cut down on sexual scandals

Buddy Larsen said...

Seneca, at a ratio of--what--100 to 1 Dem to GOP? --the only fraud case that will bother Gee-Ate is the "1".

Peter UK said...

Buddy,
Gee-Ate is the worst case of reverse false consciousness I have come across,a poor benighted impoverished prole slavering like Pavlov's dog at the prospect of a Democratic Billionaire leading him to the promised land of socialism.

The best he is going to get is,"Good work Grotty,before you go freshen my drink"

Poor fool,he could have had the contract with Halliburton refurbishing airconditioning in Iraq.Needn't have gone himself,frightened of loud bangs you know.

How is the Bentley Continental coming on,nice bit of carflesh, what?

Buddy Larsen said...

In case mark don't know it, to toss a case outta court "with prejudice" means the judge is angry at the degree, level, and nature of the case's abuse of the judicial system.

It's a stiging slap across the face of whomever brought the case.

In this event, it is the same crowd of angry Ann Richards loyalists in Austin who--still p*ssed off over "shrub" beating Ann for gov, are (were) behind MemoGate.

I know this for a fact, there is no doubt, I know several of the players--tho we no longer small-talk. Why not? Because the ploy was an attempt to bring down a sitting, wartime president via a set-up case of fraud. I did not approve.

Dan Rather lost his job--but elsewhere, and/or other times, he and Mapes and a dozen others would've been in trouble with the law--at least civilly.

But Bush said, "Awww, it's the silly season, let 'em off the hook."

So, they respect his generous spirit by going after DeLay--whose crime was straightening out some old Dem gerrymanders that had long screwed the residents out of their desired representation.

Wot a crew. Feh.

Seneca the Younger said...

Does this mean that when the
Dead Democrats take over there could be a deceased President in the Whitehouse.
The ramifications of this are stupendous,everyone since 1776 is eligible.It will certainly cut down on sexual scandals


Like we used to say in medical school: you want to be a pathologist; patients are dying to see you.

Buddy Larsen said...

Dan's daughter of course is in Austin, too, with some sort of job or something, and was in it up to her little red book & kerchief.

Bentley is okay, Peter, but someone has used the ashtray, and I really need a new one without the wear and tear.

Buddy Larsen said...

Hey, I was gonna start a cemetary for that reason--people dying to get in!

Peter UK said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Peter UK said...

Buddy,
Terribly sorry Old Bean,I'll fly one of my people out with a new one,throw the old car away.

Buddy Larsen said...

Aces of you, old chap..I can't be arsed with the sullied model, I've let it to the upstairs staff, last seen reversing down the tarmac in a beastly anti-clockwise spin, gone a bit barmy at the luck, you know.

Buddy Larsen said...

okay--gotta flag on the 200--promised the littlest turd I'd watch Lard of the Wrings with her.

been delightful!

Peter UK said...

Buddy,
Hope they didn't prang the Gulfstream,just had it painted in the Larsen colours,I believe?

Peter UK said...

Well,they all gone,Buddy Larsen gone,Terrye,gone,Luca Brazzi gone ,Barzini gone,Mark Garrity gone,time for a deus exmachina.
Folks,Mark Garrity is the idiot son of Karl Rove sent here to test the metal of the troops.

markg8 said...

Rise and shine and greet the new morning folks. It's amazing how you guys stick to your hoary stereotypes.

I'm the son of a son of a salesman and proud of it. Been doing it since I put on my Sunday best at the age of 8, memorized my spiel and went out in the August heat to sell Christmas cards to local housewives in order to earn enough money to buy a drumset. I wanted to be a Beatle.

When I was 26 I started my own business with $3200 in my checking account on an old kitchen table in a spare room with a Ill Bell landline, MCI long distance at $.30 a minute and a worn out IBM Selectric that my roommate found somewhere. Never drawn a paycheck from anybody else since.

In the tough times I've eaten bread and mustard sandwiches or the same pot of spaghetti for a week at a stretch to make ends meet. In the good times I've put a third down on a house and bought cars with cash. I'm living the American dream and I've also seen how the insecurity of the "on your ownership" society Bush is shooting for would make it harder for anyone starting from scratch today in favor of helping those who already have it made like him.

Seneca I'll get to your points about
the various Repub recalcitrants later.

As for election reform look up HR 550. It's a good start for bolstering the Help America Vote Act. Requires random audits, voter verified paper ballots, and no proprietary code. It doesn't throw the baby out with the bathwater forcing states to junk expensive equipment they've bought since 2002, isn't stuffed with iffy legal language or things Repubs will never vote for like some of the other Dem bills and isn't a sham like some of the Repubs'. It has over 150 supporters in the House including 7 Repubs at last count. It's a good bill and if by some miracle it gets passed this session it's provisions can be implemented in time for next year's election. What say you?

Peter UK said...

"'m the son of a son of a salesman and proud of it."

Your pitch isn't working

"Been doing it since I put on my Sunday best at the age of 8, memorized my spiel and went out in the August heat to sell Christmas cards to local housewives in order to earn enough money to buy a drumset."


Christmas cards in August,you've been stupid that long? I'm beginnig to see a pattern here.

"I wanted to be a Beatle."

Q, What do you call someone who hangs around musicians?

A, A drummer.

Peter UK said...

Checking the subject of the thread,I confirm it is Under-reported News from Iraq Not voting systems at all.

So either Mookie has lost the thread or he is stealing it.Why would a Demobot thread steal? To obscure news of the progress made in Iraq,the fact that things are going well,contrary to his Democratic master's surrender scenario.

Buddy Larsen said...

HAVA is what he's talking about, Peter. The "give felons the vote" proposal.

Mark, the new Dec 10 tone is very nice--even if you did call us hoars.

I know you probly hate Norman Ornstein, he being a conservative intellekshul, but here's his paper on HAVA.

Buddy Larsen said...

The paper's title:

Testimony of Norman J. Ornstein
Resident Scholar, American Enterprise Institute
Commission on Federal Election Reform
June 30, 2005
James Baker III Institute for Public Policy
Rice University, Houston, Texas

Seneca the Younger said...

I'm not sure that drummer jokes are s quite what I had in mind when I said we should tease mark enough to get to 200 comments. That said, however:

Q: What did the drummer get on his IQ test?

A: Drool.

Peter UK said...

Buddy,
The "give felons the vote" proposal.
It follows that most felons vote Democrat,otherwise the Democrats would not have proposed it.
Does this mean Slick can vote?

Peter UK said...

Seneca,
That is how you can tell whether the drum rostrum is level.
The drummer drools out of both sides of his mouth.

Seneca the Younger said...

Mark, I've just scanned HR550 -- I'm not reading the damned thing until I've have more coffee -- but on first look it looks okay. I'm not sure about the requirement to open-source the machines. I'm generally in favor of open source software, but I'm also in favor of people being able to make a living; beyond that simply opening the source doesn't guarantee it's used correctly. I think I'd prefer a Common Criteria requirement.

But in any case, worrying about the voting machines seems to me to be a mistake: voting problems have a lot more to do with county commissions in machine (the other kind of machine) towns.

The Diebold thing is another one of those conspiracy theory fantasies that requires a conspiracy among hundreds of people who uniformly keep their mouths shut.

Seneca the Younger said...

Sorry, I told you I hadn't had enough coffee. The audit requirement sounds like a good general idea. I'm definitely in favor of requiring a physical audit trail. I'd like to see that audit trail include a cryptographic signature to identify a valid ballot, although I can't decide yet whether it's possible to do that in a way that convincingly preserves anonymity.

Buddy Larsen said...

"...requires a conspiracy among hundreds of people who uniformly keep their mouths shut.'

That right there kills a lot of conspiracy viabilities.

Requiring conspirators to have the opposing character traits--say, honor, reliability, strength to keep quiet in the face of book deal$ and sundry latterly phenomenae, is to mix oil & water.

Enough continual energy applied might achieve an exceeding weak suspension, which collapses the instant the agitation subsides. There IS no solution, the problem is insoluble--thank goodness.

Peter UK said...

FIRST YORKSHIREMAN:
You were lucky. We lived for three months in a paper bag in a septic tank. We used to have to get up at six in the morning, clean the paper bag, eat a crust of stale bread, go to work down t' mill, fourteen hours a day, week-in week-out, for sixpence a week, and when we got home our Dad would thrash us to sleep wi' his belt.
SECOND YORKSHIREMAN:
Luxury. We used to have to get out of the lake at six o'clock in the morning, clean the lake, eat a handful of 'ot gravel, work twenty hour day at mill for tuppence a month, come home, and Dad would thrash us to sleep with a broken bottle, if we were lucky!
THIRD YORKSHIREMAN:
Well, of course, we had it tough. We used to 'ave to get up out of shoebox at twelve o'clock at night and lick road clean wit' tongue. We had two bits of cold gravel, worked twenty-four hours a day at mill for sixpence every four years, and when we got home our Dad would slice us in two wit' bread knife.
FOURTH YORKSHIREMAN:
Right. I had to get up in the morning at ten o'clock at night half an hour before I went to bed, drink a cup of sulphuric acid, work twenty-nine hours a day down mill, and pay mill owner for permission to come to work, and when we got home, our Dad and our mother would kill us and dance about on our graves singing Hallelujah.
FIRST YORKSHIREMAN:
And you try and tell the young people of today that ..... they won't believe you.
ALL:
They won't

markg8 said...

Actually Petey back in the old days it took the printers until November to deliver the customized cards anyway. The housewives thought I was so cute a lot of them gave me lemonade while they picked out their cards.

And Buddy, I think Ornstein's ok for an AEIer. Hell, he vacations with Al Franken. He doesn't really pick a side or back a particular bill in that speech other than to call for comprehensive reform. I think he's wrong on that. If you know anything about congress that just ain't likely to happen. Despite strawman legend how many documented court cases have their been of deceased voters actually voting? How many cases of fraud regarding false representation? I'd like to see some links if you got 'em. There are very few I know of but a whole lot of Republican intimidation of minorities, shorting Dem leaning precincts of voting machines and whole new set of possiblities for stealing votes with DREs.

As for Nixon in 1960 he never did ask for a recount in Illinois or anywhere else back in 1960 did he?
Ever wonder why that is?

markg8 said...

Buddy I could have called your argument crotchety but I'm too polite.

Buddy Larsen said...

Mark--call my whole LIFE crotchety, that's closer to the mark. Ha--do you think you could get closer to the mark, Mark?

but, for starters, withoput going to GooGoo, Nixon's historical archives all say the same thing--he feared a recount would damage the nation.

latest big time Dem election thefts, a NW governor (I get Wash & Oregon confused), and Tiny Tom's Indians in one of the Dakotas.

Peter UK said...

"The housewives thought I was so cute a lot of them gave me lemonade while they picked out their cards."

That is the trouble Mook. You ain't cute no more.

Peter UK said...

"When I was 26 I started my own business with $3200 in my checking account on an old kitchen table in a spare room with a Ill Bell landline, MCI long distance at $.30 a minute and a worn out IBM Selectric that my roommate found somewhere."

Didn't Bill Gates start like this?

Peter UK said...

Buddy,
Mark,mark,isn't that a dog with an impediment?

Buddy Larsen said...

last time I was cute i ended up married, with 4 kids, and mortgaged up the arse. Who wants to be cute?

Peter UK said...

This is probably why the Democrats want to enfranchise felons.

Buddy Larsen said...

Quick, check the police blotter--who lost 3200 back in...uh...dammit where's my cakyoolater?

markg8 said...

Yep Seneca the audit provision helps keep big city machines and anybody else who thinks of monkeying with the ballots honest. I think they ought to give the death penalty to anyone who does. If you guys check out DREs you'll see just how easily they can be manipulated without anyone being the wiser. Without the minimal provisions in HR 550 they are an invitation to fraud. It's not just Diebold, it's all the companies that make these machines and anybody who knows how to manipulate them. Nobody's gonna make them without a profit but I'm more interested in clean elections than I am in the screwed up boondoggle HAVA has become.

As evenly divided and as disgusted we are with each other in this country it is imperative we make our elctions as squeaky clean as possible. We're a long ways from there and any politician who's against honest election reform is suspect in my eyes.

Buddy Larsen said...

Good post, Mark--I agree with the need for reform. Motor-Voter is one nice fat sump-hole we could shuck, for starters. And photo ID is a no-brainer, the Dem argument ag/ it is paper-thin and totally specious. Drop that, too. Anybody ag/ photo ID is suspect in my eyes.

Buddy Larsen said...

I grew up in a log cabin in Illinois. Had to split fence rails for a living. Learnt me ciphers by firelight at night, with a piece of chalk on the back of a shovel. Later, I won the Civil War--which, lemme tellya, was NOT civil.

markg8 said...

Petey I tell people my name is Mark. Like a hairlip dog, Mark, Mark, Mark!

At least my parents didn't name me for
the common slang for the male appendage to constantly remind themselves you are a boy.

And you're right, I'm not cute anymore. Handsome but not cute. Can't take any credit for it though, it's just good genes.

Peter UK said...

Buddy,
"Who wants to be cute?"
Mark Garrity,it was the defining moment of his life,stood there on the doorstep in his little seersucker suit,bow tie, his hair slicked down with spit.....

markg8 said...

Ew sounds like Paul Wolfowitz.

Buddy Larsen said...

Quick, quick, police blotter, missing seersucker suit back in...dammit WHERE'S MY kakulaider?

Buddy Larsen said...

By that 'peter' naming theory, 'mark' would be ma & pa's reminder that the kid exists.

markg8 said...

Photo ID is expensive and as college kids can tell ya not all that hard to fake. The only problem I have with photo ID is it attacks a problem that doesn't exist. Once again where is the evidence that there's a problem with that kind of fraud?

It's hard enough to get minorities to vote as it is, and the only people without a photo ID, which in most cases in this country is a driver's license, are the
poor and elderly who don't drive with access to public transportation in cities. We know who they vote for and it's just another impediment to Democratic turnout. Make congress pay for it and make it easy to get and you got a deal. Otherwise it's a
poll tax.

Buddy Larsen said...

back on topic, HAVA is a mess--the felon enfranchisment will never float red America, as the fear would be that all the felons would bloc-vote out of some small NE state, say, Massachusetts, and then install anti-rule-of-law senators-for-life.

Buddy Larsen said...

There are proposals to not only pay for it, but to send election workers TO the elderly's homes to register them--on the voter's particular request.

The Dem argument ag/ that is, "These people do not want the gov't knocking on their doors".

Whew--talk about a self-licking ice cream cone...pure tautologism.

markg8 said...

My Mom claims I was named after a handsome young minister at church but I suspect there was dashing soap opera character on TV with the name or something. They were going to name me Jeffrey but my father insisted on shorter names for the kids as we'd have have to sign on the dotted line our whole lives and thought it was too long.

My uncle named my cousin Jeffrey when he found out his uncle Bruce had been a member of the Klan in Indiana. Go figure.

Peter UK said...

"We know who they vote for and it's just another impediment to Democratic turnout. Make congress pay for it and make it easy to get and you got a deal."

So all the high sounding verbiage was to increase the Democrat's vote.

Ever thought Mook,that the real reason they don't vote Democrat, is because they look up and see a bunch of white billionairse running the party?

Buddy Larsen said...

SHOULD casting a vote for the future of the nation, *BE* utterly effortless?

If so, why?

Buddy Larsen said...

We can't do any more chads, that's for DAMN sure.

Buddy Larsen said...

White Billionaires that having made it, prefer a gov't that strangles-in-the-crib any possible future competitors?

Buddy Larsen said...

Jeez--hate to leave this thread--but got company coming, and the maid hasn't shown up since I borrowed that twenty bucks from her.

markg8 said...

Buddy the drug sentencing laws passed in the 80s and 90s have effectively disenfranchised a big proportion of minority voters in a lot of states. How fair is it for there to be felony charges for $30 of crack cocaine, a popular drug among minorities and much less serious charges for larger amounts of powder cocaine, a drug popular among more affluent consumers? Not to mention to kind of slap on the wrist that can be bought with good legal representation the poor can't afford?

Not all states bar felons from voting for life but those that do have an effective tool for supressing the political voice of the least well to do. Do you have a GOOD reason for denying those who have paid their debt to society from
voting or do you think they should always remain a permanent underclass?

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