But while tracking down some stuff re: "the draft" (yet again a rising topic among assorted variations of Leftoids), I noticed this (from House GOP Brings Up Draft in Order to Knock It Down, a WaPo article from Oct. 6, 2004)
Voting for the measure were Reps. John P. Murtha (D-Pa.), who long has argued the United States needs more troops in Iraq, and Fortney "Pete" Stark (D-Calif.), a 32-year House veteran.
The vote was about HR 163, which was the source of...
Rumors of reinstating the military draft, which have flourished for months in panicky e-mails, online chat rooms, college dorms and student newspapers, suddenly dominated the House floor yesterday in one of the strangest parliamentary maneuvers in memory. With even its sponsor voting against it, a bill to require young adults to perform military or civil service failed, 402 to 2.
I can personally attest to the "panicky rumors that fourished", they were widespread among the college crowd and, especially, parents of the college crowd.
Even Charles Rangel (D-NY), the primary sponsor of HR 163, voted against it. Murtha seems a very odd duck.
47 comments:
Knuck, he's a 30 yr Marine Corp vet, and in a 'primitive' emotion-based system has thus earned expertise on what will happen viz Al Quaeda once we spool it up and haul ass.
That this sooth say different from the rest of the Corp is of no moment, apparently.
Rain dance make rain, if keep rain dancing until rain.
Dave, God luvya, JFKerry won 48% of the vote just a year ago. Please don't decide that they don't know what they're doing. Remember, the schools no longer teach history, so this war can easily look like all pain, no gain.
In fact, some have moved beyond ahistoricism all the way back to European 30s-style malhistoricism: this from C.Hitchens(bolding mine):
"...the Iraq Liberation Act, during the Clinton-Gore administration, in 1998...passed the Senate without a dissenting vote—did expressly call for the removal of Saddam Hussein but did not actually mention the use of direct U.S. military force.
Let us suppose, then, that we can find a senator who voted for the 1998 act to remove Saddam Hussein yet did not anticipate that it might entail the use of force, and who later voted for the 2002 resolution and did not appreciate that the authorization of force would entail the removal of Saddam Hussein! Would this senator kindly stand up and take a bow? He or she embodies all the moral and intellectual force of the anti-war movement. And don't be bashful, ladies and gentlemen of the "shocked, shocked" faction, we already know who you are.
buddy - the left has long-believed the masses to be too dumb to think for themselves (alternatively unevolved hicks or pathetic dupes).
this being a given, the current strategy, focusing as it does upon ignoring or re-writing history (The Big Lie), over-simplifying the issues (war never solves anything), hammering straw-men (stockpiles of WMDs), and shameless pandering (we're for security without fighting!) becomes clear.
They're terrified of Hitch because (a) he's much smarter than any of them and (b) he knows where the bodies are buried. they just pray (hah) that he'll shut up, that no-one will read and/or understand him and quietly move the goalposts.
Mark, you're right about the imagery--it hurts. I don't mean politically (tho that too), but on a human level.
But it's a derivative hurt--it's the hurt of the KIA and the wounded and their families. Cong. Murtha is just channeling it, as if anyone needs such an exhibition.
What about the kids who died fighting George III--why not start there, where Americans first died fighting for the country?
Why not speak out against human pain in general, and how much of it is caused by weighing the future on the same scale as the present?
Buddy,
Kerry pulled 48% as a single candidate backed by the Demsm propaganda organ playing with every stop pulled.
If the Dems think an ojectively pro al Queada position is a winning strategy then they should play it out until election day and see what happens. They won't but it would be nice to see them try.
When talk radio shifts focus and starts discussing dropping gas prices, full employment, low inflation, steady growth in the economy, a dropping deficit and the fact that this is the longest period with no terrorist attacks on US property since Carter ceded the US embassy to the Iranians then the Dems strategy will have to change.
Mark, another 2-4 trillion-dollar 911-style *loss* (not to mention the lives)--and its promise of a third, fourth, and so on--would utterly fubar the entire USA as we know it...and all that may be preventing it is what the USA armed forces did after the first one, and the boots on the ground one little borderline away from the terror-lairs in Syria, Iran, and maybe another country or two of note.
That's no more speculative--and a whole helluvalot more prudent (more considerate of the stakes)--than Cong. Murtha's list of assertions. And if we must play dueling quotes, I can paste thousands from sober, serious national leaders that agree.
I answer you on the assumption that there's little on the national scene more important than preventing another 911. Could be you disagree.
Knuck, since the far-left tail seems to be waggin' their dog, could be that the system do-over that the terrorists want, ain't much different than the one the reds are after.
And i agree. this system is too much. all i need is a scrap of turf, some tater seeds, a wood-burning stove for me and the pigs to sleep on, and a barrel of vodka. Oh, yes, and a short life-span.
As far as amping up the enemy, that's called "fighting back". Take a look at any war--the more the enemy--on either and both sides--fights back, the more resources get poured into the fight. German/Japanese war production and recruitment peaked in '44, when they'd all but lost their wars. How could we have kept them down at say '42 levels? By quitting fighting back. sure, the whole biz sucks. But, since we didn't start it, it's not likely to go away if we quit, is it?
So, what do we do?
Invite OBL to the UN and have a Peace Conference? Or quit, endure the terrorism as long as possible, then Nuke the MidEast?
Or, endure it until we ourselves pass on, and then, well, who the f**k cares?
Mark, yes, Russia now, tomorrow the WORLD! And, per the 'muslim folks', i think you mean the guys who pulled Beslan?
Murtha has so far called for a draft and then said the fighting is too hard on the soldiers and their families. I wonder what he thinks a draft would do to families?
He has voted for the war and called for more troops, then he said they could not win and now he wants us to cut and run.
He has covered all the bases. You know what they say, consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds.
I come from a family which has always had people serving in the military. As much as we all want everyone home, military people by and large also want to finish their mission.. for their friends and their families.
As for Bush's fiscal policies this economy has grown at more than 3% growth rate for 10 quarters, that is something not done in decades.
The deficit has shrunk over 17% this year.
I remember Clinton's bubble and all the pretend money coming from the dot coms but as soon as he was out of office the GAO was revising numbers in the negative direction.
The economy is bigger than a president, it has its own cycles.
I really think it is irresponsible for Democrats to be telling folks that the days of $20 an hour factory jobs are coming back, social security can go on like this forever and if we just run away from Iraq everything will be alright.
I think defeatists like Murtha send a very bad signal to the enemy. Why give up when you have people like this giving you what you want?
And have you ever noticed how the left makes a big deal out of it when some guy who was in the military says something they want to hear, but when the exMarine is someone like Oliver North he is a baby killing moron?
How many of you guys think a lot of this is the Democrats trying to position themselves to take credit for any upcoming troop draw downs?
mark are you aware of the fact that government tax receipts actually went up when the taxes were cut?
I will never forget Clinton's retrocative tax increase. I was divorced, trying to support myself and living check to check.
That did not help me.
Terrye, that was my first thought, re Kerry's "20,000 home by Thanksgiving" campaign. He's done that aplenty throughout his career--read the handwriting on the wall, then leapt forward to take the credit. "I see the White house heard my call...." I can hear it now. Pardon me while I step outside & upchuck.
Mark, anyone who likes Delbert Mclinton can't be all bad. Maybe when we execute plan X-'08, we'll send you to one of the nicer labor camps. Maybe the big one near Waco, rather than the one for the badasses up at the North Pole. But you have to behave.
Mark, where can I send you a copy of my new book "Economics for Toddlers"?
Mark, the best barometerof what RR accomplished in preventing a communist takeover of Central America is what their markets and GDPs have done since he fought off the Soviet-backed Sandinistas (despite their friends Kerry and Harkin) and settled the people on the rule of law, free mkts, and institutional protection of private property.
Hop over to Google and take a look. Note that the whole land mass market economy south of the Rio Grande started up under RR, leveled out under Clinton, then went parabolic upward under GWB.
These are just numbers, but behind them are hundreds of millions with hope and confidence now, and a growing stake in an ownership future.
Forget your boy Chavez--he's a moment of static (courtesy of Jimmy Carter, every dictator's favorite American) and is busily screwing up so badly that he's making the rest of L/Am even more anti-communist.
Latin American communism was going to be village rule by local tribute-supported armed gang--fine if you were in the gang. Always bothered me how the party of the little guy--your party, Mark--could so blithely sell out so many (brown) little guys, for the sake of one-ups on the GOP, way far away in rich, other-worldly Washington DC. And I know--I was there.
Fire trucks-LOL. But, sorry, North Pole for you, boy.
markg8 said;
"China's plan is bring another 300 million of their 1.3 billion out of poverty by sometime next decade. When and if they do they'll be able to sell
the products they now sell to us internally. They can then relatively painlessly cut us loose if they so choose."
How is it possible that somebody can reach the age of forty-nine, which mark claims to be, and still be so illiterate economically?
So, what, the Dems want China to keep the 300 million in poverty? More 'party of the little guy'?
The Yuan is still--even with the 'basket' a dollarized money--if they want an economic war thru their US bond holdings, they'll kill their own reserves first of all. Thus Peter's 'stunningly stupid' directed at same.
You really--really--ought to read wider, Mark--get out of the ideological economics (forget robert 'never right' reich) and into something more academic.
The problema could be woise. Rising mkts have made many mobile enough to try for even more in this clean, well-lit, republican nation. You guys, Mark, would, in time, reverse the flow--gringos would be trying to sneak OUT.
The economy--by every measure--is fair-to-excellent. Convert your scare numbers into %s, then it'll clarify for ya. The big boom will have to wait until we get you lefty buzzkillers settled into the labor camps.
So, they're running up commodity prices in order to harm their lo-cost producer position in soft goods, as well as decrease their hard currency buying power?
Re costa rica, don't let the door hit ya in the ass on yer way out.
Dems can't manage that leap of faith, that there's such a thing as mutually-advantageous economic relationships that also involve competition. Everything has to be simpler for them, or else they frown and sulk, figuring that somehow, some way, they're gettin' screwed.
mark:
If you move to Costa Rica, watch what you say, they are very conservative.
I know people from ElSalvador and believe it or not the Marxists are not all that popular there. They are murdering criminals.
In fact in the region the Sandinistas of Nicaragua had the worse human rights abuses, as if the left cared. After all they were communists so they could kill and maim all they want.
I was not all that crazy about Reagan's policy at the time but he was a lot closer to being right than Carter was, that is for sure.
The problem with the regio has a lot to do with a feudal casts system and corruption and that is not our fault.
Believe it or not, not everything is.
Yeah, that debt stuff sux alright. Imagine, having to pay people back! with interest! The fascism of it all. Much better to walk 'til you're 35, THEN buy the car with all cash. And live with ma n' pa--you, the wife and kids, and yer brother and HIS wife and kids--in the spare room until you're 50 and can buy a house with all cash. Luv it!
I read somewhere he's selling 6 to 8 ads per week @ $1500/per ad/per week. Hey, that's some lefty! Quick, somebody gimme a Greek fisherman's cap!
Peter, that's right out of the Small Business Administration handbook! Paste a biz plan off the net, grab the dough from Uncle Softy, and toss the the biz plan in the trashcan on yer way to Costa Rica! Whoopee!
Well, if none of that comes thru for Mark, maybe with time and limitless oodles of free tax money, they'll uncover DeLay's greatgrandaddy's elementary school records, and will be able to finally bring down the West via that 1902 peggy sue's pigtail-in-the-inkwell incident.
Meanwhile...back at the ranch....
Well, we must be winning the war, judging by the Dem's frantic anxiety to hurry and lose it while there's still time.
We can ask Mark, soon as he gets set up in Costa Rica and has had time to steal a new computer.
Smart--if he gets his way, when the new petro-narco-terror state of OsamasIraq burns New Jersey, he'll be off wasting Margaritaville.
anyhoo, Peter, FoxNews just ran some new polls--phrased in that way of letting people answer the question they think they're being asked--and 56% of Americans have a high-expectation of that Iraq will become a stable democracy (this 56% will reliably vote conservative), and 19% think we should pull out now.
This is, you know, that same bulldoggedly ignorant, culturally useless grab-bag of the jealous and pissed-off that has always been with us, and, until we level all aspects of society for them, always will be.
Unfortunately, that entire 19% is apparently in journalism.
For sure, Peter, many things in Nature are beautiful, deadly, and totally slave to instinct.
Well, in Tom Wolfe's radical chic, the beautiful people, mau-mauing the flack-catchers, sort of way. I doubt that Wolfe is very big in England (too provincial), but ever since the conductor of the NY Philharmonic joined the Black Panthers, some eons ago in the 70s, he's chronicled the idiocy oft induced by privilege's layered removal from the consequences of its own activity.
Peter, stupid me, having read you for some time, and being familiar with your knowledge of the World Wars, who else would know more about the dangers of leadership-by-birthright than someone whose country had endured WWI? Wonder how many Americans understand the meaning of those 1914-18 casualty lists, and how they still color British politics?
What was that--in a nation with a quarter of the USA population--30,000 KIA the first day of The Somme? That would be 120,000 KIA here now, in one day. Consequences, unimaginable. Another time when Britain held together when any other free nation on the planet may not've: when in the midst of Hitler's wild success, the Repulse and the brand-new, pride of the nation, Prince of Wales were both rather nonchalantly sunk in the Pacific by Japanese aircraft that weren't even known to be in the area. Yet, Britain stiffened that lip and came back. Good iron. and thank goodness. We all had a very real chance to go under, and be living now in a perfected, permanent, gestapo nightmare.
Churchill in the early 1940s, as Lincoln in the early 1860s, saved the nation with words. "Mere" words.
And not soothing "I'm okay, you're okay" words; rather the opposite. Each had the sense to admit to the need for blood, sweat, toil and tears, and the people had the sense to comprehend that the choice was that or something far worse. And it all really happened, just yesterday.
Those were the "Kitchener Brigades", weren't they? Whole villages would lose their entire male generation in an hour or two.
It's a wonder the nation didn't quit, isn't it?
Not yet, anyway.
I agree, a current threat with the power of the WWII Axis would run through our liberal societies like grass through a goose. Like laxatives through Aunt Maggie.
A big question is numbers--how great a percentage of liberals can a population support before the war-fighters decide there's nothing worth protecting?
ha--it looks like i forecast your 8:24 with my 8:21--due to your re-write. wish I COULD do that--a week in the mkts and i could finally--as God intended--RULE the WORLD! ;-)
Yes, with a strong cohort of Iraq vets returning to State U., Professor Ponytail is for sure in for a challenging glide into retirement. Couldn't happen to a nicer pink boomer, could it? ;-)
After the Depression and WWII, ma & pa wanted their kids to have what they themselves hadn't had. Goes back to what you said about taking care what you wish for.
And it really is permanently conflicted. Freedom has to include the freedom to be a fool. And the Beatles were sublime. It's just that a growing up never happened for so, so many.
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